Divorcing Dads

From "You Want a Divorce?" to "I'm Happy This Happened"

• Eran Magen, Ph.D. • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Six months into his divorce from his wife of 13 years and with two young kids, Mark reflects on what he learned, and what he wished he knew earlier.

Mark also shares some practical advice about:
• Navigating the first weeks and months of a divorce
• Enjoying time with the kids
• Enjoying time without the kids
• Learning how to share the news with friends
• Setting boundaries with his ex, including physical boundaries with the ex
• The benefits of travel
• Getting through the bad days

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Mark:

When you go through it, you just don't really see the light at the end of the tunnel. For me, I can honestly look back and say I'm happy that this happened. I am a happier person than I was. I'm discovering more about myself and who I am and who the kids are, and I wouldn't have believed you if you had told me that was what my life was going to be like a year ago.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Welcome to the Divorcing Dads podcast. My name is Dr Eran Magen. Join. Welcome to the Divorcing Dads podcast. My name is Dr Eran Magin. Join me for honest conversations with divorcing dads about their journey of healing. Our goal is to support and empower divorcing dads to stay connected with their children while living a life they love. To protect the privacy of the dads I speak with we change their voice as well as names, locations and other potentially identifying information. If you are feeling hopeless or unsafe, please call 988, which offers free and confidential counseling 24-7. You are not alone. Your kid's life will be better with you in it. Don't give up. That number again is 988. And now let's turn to today's episode.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Mark and I had been talking for a few months before we started recording our conversations with the hope that they would be helpful for other people going through similar experiences. To bring you up to speed, we start with Mark summarizing his experiences that have led up to the point where we started the recording. So a little bit like in Star Wars, starting in episode three with a synopsis. Later episodes will have a very different format, where you'll hear Mark processing experiences that he's had recently and trying to figure out what to do about them and how to address challenges that he's going through, what has worked for him and what hasn't. Over the course of his story, mark will also share some practical advice for navigating the first few weeks and months of a divorce, including how to seek support, how to set boundaries with the ex, including physical boundaries, and how to get through the bad days.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Mark's story will probably sound familiar to many of you who've been through a divorce. When you hear it, I hope that you will realize that you're not alone. But, more importantly, I hope that it helps realize that you're not alone. But, more importantly, I hope that it helps you realize that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, because even though Mark's story has a dark beginning, it's actually a story of hope. And to help drive this point home, here are some words from Mark.

Mark:

The sucky part about suffering is when you go through it, you just don't really see the light at the end of the tunnel, even if it's a great thing For me. I can honestly look back and say I'm happy that this happened, like I am a happier person than I was. I'm discovering more about myself and who I am and who the kids are, and just cherishing the time I have with my kids and myself. But like I wouldn't have known that and I wouldn't have believed you if you had told me that was what my life was going to be like a year ago.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

So, as you listen to his story, keep in mind there is a happy ending. With that, let's turn to the recording of our conversation.

Mark:

Hey, hey, ron, hey, How's it going Good.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Good, I feel like I haven't seen you in a while. For some reason, it's been a little bit over two weeks, right?

Mark:

I guess. So yeah, but it's funny that little difference feels palpable, I guess, for friends. Huh, that's why that's how you know.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Yeah, you miss talking to the other person. Yeah.

Mark:

So we wanted to go over the story today, right?

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

I would really love to, if you're up for it.

Mark:

That's great. This is going to be off the cuff. I don't really have anything written down, so it's going to be.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Okay, so the goal is to review I mean starting as far back as you like, essentially, and kind of bringing us to the present moment, including things that happen and things you remember thinking and figuring out.

Mark:

So, okay, sure, I guess we can start off. In April of this past year we had just passed our 13th year anniversary of marriage. We had just gotten back from a vacation a spring break vacation with the kids. The night we got back I put the kids to bed. My wife at the time asked me to kind of just have a talk, which we don't really do that often or even at all. That's when she asked me for a divorce. She said she had said things to the effect of well, you know I'm unhappy, you know we haven't been intimate in a long time and that makes me feel unloved and you haven't really been taking care of me or paying attention to me or anything like that, making it feel like this was basically like my fault. And she had said I want to start dating other people, I want to start seeing other people. There's a guy that I'm interested in and she'd been going climbing on her own for a long time. It was kind of something that I helped support her in doing, just support, being like you know, yeah, her achievements and everything that, and also taking care of the kids so that she could go do that and hang out with her friends. I didn't know that there was anything going on at all. So we had that talk that night. I said you know, really I'm not happy either. We haven't been sleeping in the same bed in a long time, unless if the kids want to go to sleep or whatever, because of my snoring and stuff like that. I also wasn't happy that she didn't want to work on it, because a few times in the past I said let's go to a counselor, let's go to work on things. Even if things are going well, let's just do a checkup, just a healthy habit of meeting with a parent counselor or a couple's counselor or whatever. And all this time she said, no, I'm fine. So she never wanted to do any counseling or anything or work on it. And then the next week or so I had read just a few things, you know, searching through things like I do, like when I panic, right and I came across some advice that said, hey, infidelity isn't necessarily the end of a marriage, it's just kind of a symptom of needing something in the relationship and you could still see a counselor and work on your marriage, right. I didn't really know how serious or committed she was to having the divorce About a week later, during one of our talks, I just asked her point blank hey, is there something going on already?

Mark:

Are you already having an affair? And she replied kind of I said, are you seeing someone? And she said yeah, I'm seeing someone. And I said have you slept with this person? She said yeah, I've slept with someone. And I said, yeah, you know that's an affair, right, I mean, and I think it had been going on for some time In the past year or so, everything just kind of clicked into place.

Mark:

As I look back, these signs and all the actions and stuff now come to light and now it all just makes sense, right, I didn't ask her and I hadn't asked her how long I'd been going on for, because I just really don't want to know. But you know, in the past you kind of turned off the her location sharing on her phone for a month at a time In the past year, I guess over a year, she had started to act pretty cold. By the time she'd asked me for the divorce I was already walking on eggshells sometimes or just being so unsure of stuff, like when she got home from work and I think and you and I have talked about this too A lot of it was due to maybe, her own guilt about having the affair. Just needed to find something or some fault in me to just make her feel better about it, or things like that. So I'm jumping around a little bit in the story, but all there is to say is that a lot of the behavior she had in the past towards me just started to make sense. Our marriage was pretty dead, I say for at least a year. Me just started to make sense. Our marriage was pretty dead, I say for at least a year or so. Prior to that April, she'd been treating me pretty poorly, like I said, and one of the realizations that I had was that the word contempt came to mind. She treated me with the attitude of contempt in the past year or so. A lot of sarcasm. Year or so, a lot of sarcasm, a lot of disregard for my needs, a lot of just general lack of caring. It wasn't like an upright hate, but it was definitely contempt, like I read something later on about like relationships and about how there's contempt or maybe I read that first, but definitely an accurate description of her attitude towards me.

Mark:

Leading up to that, leading up to the divorce, I had always thought well, it's been a stressful time for her at work. She took on a new role just for her to be there more often, to carry a lot more administrative burden at work, which she hadn't been doing. So I really thought that work was what was making her unhappy, and just the stress from that position. And things got really busy during and after the pandemic at work. So, yeah, we then decided to separate in June, june 1st of this year, and we went through a mediation process from June through mid-August to just kind of finalize the mediation process. It was mostly amicable, I think, just mostly, because we didn't want to get lawyers involved. You know how expensive that is. I had recently just heard a story from a friend. She had mentioned that one of her friends was going through a really messy divorce and it just costed a lot of money. And I just felt like we felt like we could navigate this on our own and we did One issue during the mediation and you and I have talked a lot about that, like her mendacity.

Mark:

I guess, through this mediation process, I would ask for certain concessions, being the one who's been cheated on and being the one who's, you know, has been managing most of our family's financials for the last 13 years. You know, knowing how it all goes on asking her for like she wanted me to buy her out of her portion of the equity of the home. But I asked her if she could take on a little bit less of that so I could buy her up for a little lower amount, so I could have some, or so I could just be more financially secure. She would initially agree to these concessions. She would say things like oh, I'm not out here to suck you dry. Yeah, I'm kind of fine with just taking this or that or less than 50% of her share that she was asking for. She even said, now that we're coming upon tuition renewal for the kids, she even said let's split tuition 60-40, and I'll pay 60 and you pay 40%, because she does make that much more than I do. So we're kind of at a 60-40 split.

Mark:

When it all came to mediation, it all went out the window. She just wanted 50-50 of everything, which just really caught me off guard. And then the mediator would often take her side anyway, which was really weird. So the mediator would take her side, because the mediator just wanted to see everything 50-50, even though we had had other verbal agreements, the mediator didn't care. During the mediation I mentioned, the mediator would kind of take her side. It wasn't like outright, but it was just like little microaggressions and things she would say really encouraging things, like you're being so generous by giving up the house or because you work and your paycheck reflects all your work, or whatever. She would answer questions like I would have on her behalf, but when questions were asked of me, she would just make me do it. So like the mediation was a little bit rough. I didn't feel I mean, I know we split everything down 50-50, but I didn't really feel like it was a just process. It was fair, I guess.

Mark:

Most importantly, though, I guess, are the kids. So we have two kids One is seven and one is age nine. Both kids have initially like I guess I just know where to begin Like the main thing for both of us was the well-being of our children. At least I like to think so. When we initially told our kids the news, there were some tears, and so we were very, very careful to explain. Nothing would change about the way we loved them when none of this was their fault, things like that. Right, and I think we had met with a divorce coach I think is what it was called that specializes in children, and she had given us some pointers about what to talk about and how to tell the kids, so it was really helpful. One thing, though, was that she discouraged us from explaining to the children that mom had an affair, which makes sense. I mean, you don't really want your kids to have to know that and process that. It is, at the end of the day, still very convenient for her that that has to be done like that. So, anyway, like the kids throughout this whole process up through the day have been, I guess, the one word I would use which is not a word I would use with children often, but it's just generous, generous in spirit, very patient do this with children often, but it's just generous, generous in spirit, very patient. They've kind of definitely exuded resilience through all of this. I think the teachers have, in the conferences that we've had this year, have just said if you didn't tell us you were divorced, we wouldn't have known. So the kids are okay.

Mark:

There have been struggles, though the older one early on in the process, like when we were going to have a follow-up meeting with the divorce coach. One got into mom's phone and read a bunch of texts between her and her other partner and he got really, really upset and so I think to this day he still harbors some resentment towards that or unprocessed feelings about that. I think he knows. I think he knows mom had an affair and he just doesn't know how to express it. It's hard for me too because like I'm not supposed to tell him about that or any of the sort of details about that. But I've helped him process through certain feelings, like saying you know, this whole divorce is mommy's fault, or things like that. I just feel like a lot of times I'm there picking up the pieces of her wake of destruction.

Mark:

Throughout all of this, the younger one has also had some issues where his issues are more like I miss the other parent when they're not here. Initially it was mostly a missing mommy, and then he'd say, oh, I really don't miss you at all, which was funny because I'm the one that's still here, so at this home, and I'd like to think that I'm pretty consistent. So, yeah, so the younger one's issues have mainly been about missing a parent and we've been talking through that extensively and he seems to be doing a bit better these days. With that, we've also had issues on myself. I've had issues processing the divorce and in terms of like what this new relationship with my ex-wife is and what it looks like, where to draw the boundaries.

Mark:

Most of the issues in the first few months were regarding her and the other guy, me just not being okay with the fact that she's still with that person that she cheated and that she has him in our kid's life because he's coming over all the time. At this time he's basically living with them and he's just not a good guy. He's, from what I know, cheated on his wife to be with my ex and he has a kid of his own as well, and he knew he knew my ex was married and had children. Doesn't matter how nice he is or how good of a daddy he is with his own kid or allegedly, he's just not a good guy and I don't want him in my children's lives and I don't think my feelings about that will ever change, and so that is the root of a lot of anger that I have towards my ex. We also had issues with boundaries, like I'd mentioned. We also had issues with boundaries.

Mark:

Like I'd mentioned, we had issues with her showing up to my home unannounced using her old garage door opener to open the garage. That wasn't great. So any tips to divorced dads out there just make sure you get the keys, you know, and the garage door opener. So, yeah, we had an incident that we kind of, and I'll delve a little deeper into that. She asked if she could come over initially and I said no, I don't think it's a good idea. And then later on that night she had a video chat with the kids when I wasn't present, and after that made arrangements for herself to come over and drop something off under the guise of like I need to give them something. She came and give them good night hugs and and they're still very and I'm very triggered by their presence, and it was still pretty raw at the time, and so I was hiding in my own house because she came over without announcing it to me, without me even being able to prepare for it, and, yeah, it wasn't good. Later that week I got my keys in my garage door opener back.

Mark:

Lately, I think it's been about six months since the separation, eight months since we talked about the divorce. Since that time I've gotten a lot of support from my family, from my sisters especially, and a lot of my friends and people from church. They've been really helpful, checking in, keeping me in their thoughts and prayers and just spending time with me on Friday nights or whatever, and I've done a lot of processing with them right. So lately I think I'm in a pretty healthy place, you know, emotionally. I don't know about spiritually, but I'm still going to church and taking the kids and stuff Lately with the kids. They're still okay for the most part.

Mark:

I think the latest issues with them which we've talked through in the past, the latest issues with them, have been them feeling a little bit of resentment towards their mom with having that guy over all the time. My older one especially does not like his kid and I don't think he really likes the guy very much and there's not really much I can do about that. I've tried to at least encourage him to have some agency and to talk to his mom about it. So he's not.

Mark:

I guess initially he was just shoving it all down and so he wasn't talking to her about it. Also, he was just generally unhappy around them, making her upset also generally unhappy around them, making her upset also. And when I was speaking to him he was like, well, if I talk to mom, this is not going to change anything, and that kind of broke my heart. At least I've encouraged him to have some agency throughout all of this and to tell her how he feels and he did. And I told him how proud I was of him of doing that. And he was kind of sad about it because I think her response was that nothing was going to change and there's nothing that anyone's going to say about it. If not him, then nothing is going to change. I'm sure I've missed some of the details we've talked about before, but that's basically the story, the play-by-play version of how things have been over the past half year.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Thank you. You said along the way that when your son said that the whole divorce was mommy's fault, you helped him process it. How did you respond to him about that?

Mark:

I think I've said some things, or like when we talked about like, I said some things I maybe shouldn't have said. I didn't disagree with him, but I also said like it's not all her fault 100, and there were things I could have done too. You know, I really don't know exactly what I said, but but it's like it's not 100% her fault. You know, it's personally for me. I think I don't believe fully that divorce is 100% one person's fault to the others. So in the end I always tell my kids I'd rather have a kid who expresses sadness about this whole thing. Ultimately, you know, it was way better that we're not together anymore. I used to kind of say that no, you know, every day is different. Every day has its ups and downs, right? I think I'm generally happier with her not in the picture anymore, or not in the picture every day anymore.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

There was a time at the start of the process when we talked about your feelings toward her and how they've been changing throughout the process as well. Is that something you can talk about?

Mark:

I think there was some time I don't remember a few months ago where I kind of came to the realization that I used to feel gross and icky about that guy. But then I wouldn't feel the same way about her for a while, you know, because I was married to her for 13 years and she is the mother of my kids. Right Up until like a couple months ago, I just started feeling the same way about her too, like this is just grossed out by the whole, by what she did, and just triggered by her presence. You know, when I see her which is tough because you know the kids have performances at school and so I, you know, when I see her and behave differently. I don't know how to explain it, but like a couple months ago, when I had that realization that I also can prove the epiphany that like I don't love her anymore and I had initially felt bad about that or felt somewhat guilty about that, even though she couldn't love me anymore, it was just that natural reaction to me that I'm supposed to love everybody and I'm supposed to love the mother of my children, and it was just unfamiliar territory.

Mark:

We also talked about seeing old pictures of her. I have various apps and whatever, and they show you old pictures on your phone or like we have a photo frame, this Google Home thing that shows you pictures right From, like your Google photos, and she happens to be in those photos. And then I thought maybe I should delete all the photos with her, but then I realized I didn't have to, because in the course leading up to the divorce she changed a lot and so she was almost like a different person than the one in those photos and I almost think of the old person my ex being a totally different person. That's not there, and so that took some processing and some mourning actually Just mourning and so when I see old photos of her, I don't feel resentment or anger. It just reminds me of her. I feel sad because this person is gone. I hope that answers it.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Yeah, and next to another thing that we talked about a couple of times, about the way that you were processing, kind of, your role in the separation and divorce right, your contribution to it a little bit connects also, I guess, to the question that your son asked, right, kind of whose fault is it? But I'm remembering that you were also processing what sort of percentage of it was you and your behavior in the relationship when you were together.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, percentage of it was you and your behavior in in the relationship when you were together. Yeah, yeah, I think of course it's always easy to look in that I did the best that I could. I know that the divorce wasn't 100% her fault, even though she was the one who instigated the affair and things like that and things like that, even though she had unmet needs and I wasn't providing happiness to her and I was normalizing the unhealthy stuff. I probably could have pushed a little harder. I could have insisted more on sleeping in the same bed, right. I probably could have put together some more opportunities to have intimate encounters and stuff, right, but that's also a two-way street. I could have pushed more for marriage counseling rather than just in the past year, and maybe gone through or followed through with that more seriously. So there were things that I could have shifted and done, which, if we're going to be calculating percentages yeah, you know I don't even want to do that because I don't know how effective that is. I think, though, as I look back at the things that I did, I feel pretty confident or satisfied that I did the best that I could with what I had at the time, and that helps me sleep at night and I want to keep it that way, going forward. It's really important to me that in just keeping things move forward and making sure that everything is done the right way, so that I can look back and when my kids are adults and say that, that and say that I did my best, you know, and I did my best in being your dad and you know and raising you guys.

Mark:

I did that and I lived this whole thing out with integrity. Like I think I raised him in the past too, like even during the mediation which she didn't know about certain places she had. We had invested money because they were under my name, but she was legally entitled them. So I just brought them up so that she knew about them like honor code. I could have not mentioned it and just put it under the rug and I would have been okay, but I'm not even gonna think about that but making sure that she got fully 50% of what she was entitled to.

Mark:

Or even during Thanksgiving, she wasn't for some reason in our separation agreement. She wasn't listed. At Thanksgiving I reached out to her and I said, hey, do you want to have Thanksgiving dinner or night with them over the holiday with the kids. And just for context, in our separation agreement it says that the other parent is entitled to them over New Year's Day and Christmas Day or whatever in those holidays, or have at least part of the holidays together. So I offered that for Thanksgiving too. Or have at least part of the holidays together. So I offered that for Thanksgiving too.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Just trying to make sure that there's nothing that can be identified or anything that I could think of that wasn't done to the separation or to the failure of the relationship was a time when we talked about it and you said something along the lines of you feeling like you were just not enough to sustain her interest that when I was just lost in my own thoughts or thinking about stuff along the lines of me being my best throughout the course of our marriage, well, it lasted with what I knew, the thought comes in with well, even though you did all that, she still found it worth it to leave you, right?

Mark:

She still decided to leave you. So it wasn't enough, right? Also, a friend said something else to me that was kind of funny. It was that we had built something together and she was just leaving everything we had built. She was just leaving a marriage that we had built together. It wasn't something intrinsic or about me. It wasn't that she, it wasn't something intrinsic or about me or something that I did. She just decided not to stay there anymore.

Mark:

And the funny thing my friend said I'm pretty stereotypical guy he's like so let me put it in a way that you'll understand, dear Mark Like 50% of something is still an F. And I was like, yeah, I think we're both working on this project. And she just decided not to pull her weight anymore. So of course it's going to fail. Like all the best you're going to get is 50%. And that's what happened. I think that's pretty accurate. I think I put a lot into it. I would say it's 0% all the time towards raising our kids. You know, I'd be missed to say if our kids are who they are not because of her, but yeah.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

You said that you feel like your kids are generally doing well through this with some issues and some blips, but by and large pretty good. This with some issues and some blips, but by and large pretty good. When the separation started, when you were preparing for it in the initial stages of it, did you have concerns about how they would fare through this?

Mark:

we didn't have any specific concerns. We were just generally worried about how they would process how things would go. My older one is not very emotionally expressive, I would say he just kind of keeps to himself, very much an introvert, he doesn't like to go outside. So our concern really was that he would have feelings that would be left unexpressed. And still sometimes we have that concern still.

Mark:

So initially what we tried to do was find some therapy for him. Like we met with a child therapist and he met with them twice and both times he didn't want to open up to her or any of the questions that she had. Of times he didn't want to open up to her or any of the questions that she had. So, based on the questions the therapist would ask, we talked about best practices and she just didn't seem too concerned about his well-being and the one-on-one sessions with him and the therapist just didn't go anywhere. And he seems pretty okay at school, from what I can see and from what the teachers are saying. They say he's pretty sociable and he always just has new friends and so he has just a few really good friends. The things that I was really concerned about and really I'm still unhappy about, like he, she would let him read all the texts and stuff, which that was really poor move and do you and your ex?

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

throughout the process, did you discuss how things are going for the kids or how to make sure that the kids are okay? Are you still talking about them and trying to coordinate or or at least synchronize information? We at least synchronize information.

Mark:

We at least synchronize information. We're on reasonable talking terms, speaking terms, and most of our communication is in text and email. So anything that needs to be done we're on the same page about. As far as their well-being goes, it's harder because most of their sources of well-being have to do with her and that guy you know. And so if I really talk about how the kids are feeling about her and that guy, it can just come across as like self-motivated, just because I'm saying, hey, the kids weren't happy because someone went into their room the other day, or the kid went in their room the other day, or whatever. Or like the younger one's happy because his toys are out, or he's more like they're saying that the divorce is mommy's fault or whatever. And it's just not easy to communicate that without just not seeming like I'm accusing her of being a bad parent or something, as much as I'd like to do that.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

How has the divorce and the physical separation in multiple households, how has all that affected your connection with your kids?

Mark:

There's good and the bad, believe it or not. There's the bad stuff right where they're just missing the other parent or the other, the younger ones missing, but the other ones kind of said, I miss either of you, I'm just with the parent who has me. So the negatives are definitely that, like maybe we're doing something and we're playing a board game or something and there's room for a fourth player and there's not a fourth player now because mom or daddy's not there. They definitely feel that. But on the positive side, you know, I think we're doing a lot of new things. I feel like I have more room to just express myself as a dad.

Mark:

I think in the past year and a half, everything that I would do I was just tiptoeing around her moods, right, and whatever her attitude was towards me, and so everything I would do I'd just be like double checking with her to see if everything was okay. But now I don't have to do that anymore and that's been really freeing. So this past week, the past week that they were with me, I bought some camping supplies and I'm just kind of building a cache of camping supplies to go camping someday when the weather gets warmer. And you know she didn't want to go camping and I wanted to take them to do that experience. So this past week we actually set up a tent and slept in the garage for a couple days. It was raining here, and so we just slept in the garage and we had a blast.

Mark:

I didn't sleep that great, but they enjoyed it. You know. They wanted to play card games in the tent, they wanted to eat dinner in the tent, all this sort of stuff. That wouldn't have happened if we were still together. I feel like I get to focus a lot more on them. Yeah, I do feel like my attention and my love somehow is just more concentrated when I'm with them, and then the times when I'm without them I just have some time to recharge too, to kind of clean up the house the way I like it. You know, I almost feel like it's a big improvement.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

A big improvement in the connection relative to when.

Mark:

Relative to the past year and a half. Well even when we were together, when I, when we had the kids, I would have the kids, but I would also. I'd be harboring, I guess. Yeah, I'd just be harboring this unhappiness. You know, it's easy to see that in hindsight Now I'm like like, oh yeah, the life that I was living before was not a happy life in hindsight, this is kind of a strange question maybe, but in hindsight, do you now, would you now wish for the divorce to have not happened?

Mark:

yeah, I think I still would have wished for the divorce to have not happened. Yeah, I think I still would have wished for the divorce to have not happened.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, I think had. Maybe at some point, had she broken up with the guy and said, hey, let's do counseling instead, let's work on this marriage, I would have. I would have gone through with that, tried to keep things together at least for some time. There's also a story there too, right, if you find something difficult and to come out the other side of that, right. I would love to live that story too, but I don't think that story is going to happen. I don't even think I'd be open to it right now.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Are there things that would have been helpful for you to hear at the start of your process, knowing what you know now?

Mark:

I think probably at least to the mediation and stuff. Like if she lied to you about the affair, then she's going to lie to you about what she wants to do with the plan and with the finances and stuff In the course of the difficulties in the marriage. If someone had counseled me about, if I had understood the feeling of contempt that she was having towards me, maybe I would have initiated the divorce. I don't know, that's probably a stretch. I probably would have tried to keep it going for a while, but you never know what else. The thing you told me at the very beginning and I still share that with people today Imagine if your kids are someone you love very much.

Mark:

When they're older, they go through the exact same thing. What would you want them to do? What grace would you want them to show themselves? So show yourself that same grace.

Mark:

I don't know why that's so mind-blowing to me, but I think it's really easy to get lost in this guilt, through all this, in your own troubles, and say, hey, I don't deserve this, or you're just paying for your inadequacies and saying that I deserve this in a way. I think another thing that was helpful one of the answers to your questions is it helps me to take heart in the fact that you did your best. You did your best with what you did with your marriage. Yeah, I had the best intentions. I tried to do things with integrity. I didn't lie to her. I didn't have feelings of contempt towards her. I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt and tried to do the best for our kids. And knowing that I think also helped me, and knowing that I think also helped me, or doing that in the past helped me be where I am today. Yeah, of course, everything could have gone better, right.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

And if there are people listening to this or really are at the very start of the process, what suggestions do you have to them? So let's assume these are presumably divorcing dads, since this is the focus right. So these are people who also have their own kids and it's just starting and they're kind of in days after the announcement or the decision or the realization.

Mark:

In the early days of the divorce, we were always just staring down the barrel of something. You're just dreading the future. You don't know what the future is even going to look like. You don't know what your friends are going to think when they find out you're getting a divorce. You don't know if your kids are ever going to be happy after that. You don't know if you'll ever be happy again.

Mark:

There's just so many things to worry about and wonder about and be afraid of when you're facing that.

Mark:

But the only thing you can really do is just put one foot in front of the other and just do your best.

Mark:

And the next right thing For me that would just be like that for me sometimes is forcing me to eat meals and to get up in the morning and to just.

Mark:

That would just be like that for me sometimes is forcing me to eat meals and to get up in the morning and to just. It would just be like to the extent of like, hey, you just clean this corner of the house, just pick up these few things, just make yourself, do this next thing and worry about the other stuff another day or as they come in and worry about the other stuff another day or as they come in. But you can't let yourself get paralyzed by it, by all the things that, all the future thoughts that you might have or what might be or what won't be anymore. Just kind of put one foot in front of the other and do that. Just take that first step and those next right things will be a lot of great things and a lot of them will be for yourself. Like do healthy, eat, healthy exercise, seek out support in your friends and family, because they're there for you.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Do you have suggestions or thoughts to share about how to seek support, especially if somebody's feeling just generally either disconnected or embarrassed about talking about it?

Mark:

yeah, I think one of the things for me or a tool that was helpful and is helpful. Still, I just have this long email. It's written out so like if there's someone I just want to tell about the divorce. I don't want to have to relive this story. So I just have this copy-paste email that I sent to them that just says hey, this is what happened, right, especially if we're going to have to meet up, and I just don't want to have to start this from the beginning. And so I just like I sent it to a bunch of close friends that we had, so like when I went to this birthday party, it wouldn't feel awkward. That was really helpful.

Mark:

And that email I say that I'm not great asking for help. So I can't answer the question of hey, what can I do for you? Just suggest something. Just suggest like hey, let's go hang out here and I'll let you know if I can make it. I can't say things like hey, can you cook me a meal or something. I'm just not good, it's not in my nature. So I think that in that message I kind of spell it like this is how you can help me, or this is what works for me. That was one tool that helped a lot. It was very useful. That was one tool that helped a lot. It was very useful.

Mark:

Another is just like before that there were some people that I just had to break the news to in the beginning and I don't have any good advice for that when I was breaking the news to my parents or my sister or some of my close friends. It was just dealing with a lot of their anger and their processing like through the five stages of grief. You know especially a lot of their anger and their processing like through the five stages of grief. You know especially a lot of the anger and they're experiencing a lot of that anger.

Mark:

So I'd almost sometimes find myself defending her and I didn't want to have to do that, especially with my parents. They were the angriest of all towards her parents. They were the angriest of all towards her and I always felt myself kind of having to defend her. The bargaining phase is like a lot of like what was she thinking? Or we kind of arrived at the answer of was it impossible? It was just virtually impossible to know what she was thinking and then so just stop trying to do that. That's a helpful tip too right. I don't know if this will pertain to all dads or all people who are facing divorce, but to people who are maybe survivors of infidelity, especially that because that's the context that I have right the advice of not knowing or just not being able to understand what the other person was thinking, not being able to read their minds it's very helpful in the early days especially.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Do not try and actually understand the other person. Just accept that this is how they are right now, but not try to make sense of it.

Mark:

Exactly To this day. It still applies. It's like really helpful advice, probably for the remainder of your time on Earth. Like just last week, I'm going to be coaching third and fourth grade boys basketball, so I signed up to do that. And then she emailed me saying oh, have you found an assistant coach yet? I'd like to try doing that. And I was like are you serious? Like for this team, the same team that I'm head coaching, like the first time? Clearly, like we have a different understanding of what went down. Like I was just mind blown how would she possibly think this is a good idea? But then I immediately shut that down and it's not a question I will ever be able to answer. So let's just do the next right thing for myself and just say, no, it's just not a good idea. I still need to do that, but I will do that.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

We skipped over this a little bit before. Can you talk about how the dynamic between the two of you has changed over the past few months since the separation? I'm thinking specifically about how much you would meet physically.

Mark:

Yeah, the divorce coach, I talked about it. You know there's been other advice too for other people on other professionals. It's a long time. A week is a long time for the kids to be away from the other parents because our our week schedule, our schedule is one weekend at a time, sunday to sunday. You know these people have been telling us a week's a little bit long to be away and so I know you do video chats and stuff, and it was, it probably still is, especially for the younger kid.

Mark:

So we agreed to have dinners together on Wednesdays, at least initially In the early days. It was the other parent would come over to the custodial parents for dinner. So the first week I actually had to go to her place. She wouldn't cook for me, I had to bring my own dinner and then play some board games with them and spend some time with them. It was during the summer then, so they didn't have homework or anything, and then I would do that and then go home and then she would do the same thing. She would come over, I would make something for her, though Sometimes she would bring her own food or whatever, but then she'd play with them and then leave it just I got increasingly uncomfortable with that arrangement.

Mark:

I didn't like having her over to my place. I just felt like she was scoping it out, seeing. I don't think she's ever admitted that, but it was just my feeling. I felt like she was like seeing how I was doing after the divorce or finding some way to just say, hey, you're not a good dad or whatever. I don't know. I think you think all kinds of things when you're by yourself or you're upset with somebody. Anyway, it just wasn't a good thing. So we eventually decided that the other parent would just kind of pick them up after school, have dinner with them on their own on those Wednesdays, and in fact we should have just done it from the beginning, right, that helped a lot because then we didn't have to contact with each other, because my interactions with her since the divorce.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

I just don't like being in her presence and I remember we talked about it quite a bit at the time that you were unhappy with her being at your place and she would sort of linger.

Mark:

Oh yeah, she would say way too long. I remember that because we didn't set up boundaries either, like with a certain stop, and so she would just linger until basically bedtime with the kids and it was just so awkward for me and I'm just so glad we reset that boundary. It's just dinner from 5 to 7. And then we have the kid back to the other parent by 7. Because that's when they have to start washing up and getting ready. I just never would linger, I would leave promptly at 7 or 7.30. I just didn't like being at her place either. So maybe this question that you're asking, which kind of connects with the previous notion, which was of her perception of our dynamic, which is different from my perception of our dynamic, which is different from my perception of our dynamic like she would just linger and she probably just didn't have any feelings, or maybe she didn't have as many feelings as disgust with me as I did with her yeah, it's clearly.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

I mean it's clearly two different people having two different stories, living through two different stories, adjacent in space.

Mark:

I should probably also mention this for the recording, because she actually lives two blocks away. She found a condo that's two blocks away from here. It's convenient for the kids because I can just bring them over, or I can just go get them or she can bring them over. But really it's convenient for the kids because I can just bring them over, I can just go get them or she can bring them over. But it's really it's too close. I haven't ran into her in any context yet, but even just knowing that she's like that close, it's not the most comfortable thought but for you you would prefer that she live farther away, that there be more psychic separation.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Yeah, yeah, all in all, how do you feel? Like you did through the process, do you feel good about yourself, bad about yourself, proud of yourself, embarrassed?

Mark:

Yes, can I just say yes, I think, all things considered, I'm doing pretty well. Of course I wouldn't wish this experience on anybody. You know it just sucks. You know, being cheated on having to watch your kids process their parents going through a divorce, the financial part of it all it's just not great. I think we got off easy based off hearing what my or at least one of my friends shared about what her friend had gone through. But I think I did okay.

Mark:

Going through this, yeah, absolutely embarrassed. I would say that too. I wish that I didn't have to go through the divorce and that I would have had a good story to tell about us, a successful story in a marriage. And it's still awkward. I mean, I have that email written out to people, but it's still hard to send that out to people and to share that news with people and to process their anger with them. I remember early on when I felt this feeling of shame of having not lived that ideal life or that ideal family life. I'm kind of a bit over that, though I don't feel like my sense of shame comes from that so much anymore, having not lived up to some random persons or some idea that I have that some random person thinks is an ideal marriage. I don't think that's there anymore. I think I've just acclimated to the idea.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Are there things you feel good about? Are there things that you would pat yourself on the back or pat somebody else on the back if it weren't you?

Mark:

I think I'm generally happier these days than in the past, at least in the past year or so. So that's good. I would rather be that than I don't know pat myself on the back about I don't know. I think that my kids and I've grown closer. We have been close and I think we've grown closer and developed a deeper relationship in some way. For one thing, you know, I take their presence a lot less for granted, because they're here and we are navigating a really hard thing together and I think that will build up their character somehow, or I know it will.

Mark:

I also look at the community around me. Like I was saying, my group at church and our friendships have gotten deeper too. A bunch of guys might get together and talk about cars all the time or whatever, and you feel like you're still pretty good friends, but all you do is talk about cars or sports. It's usually sports, right, but then throughout all this I had an opportunity to come through this hardship and our friendships have grown because of it and I'm glad for that. I wish I didn't take a divorce for that, but I'm glad that it's deeper and the friendship is deeper and we're better friends now because of it.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

I think there are quite a few things that you did really well to take care of yourself and of your kids and, to an extent, of your ex. Although I understand your goal is not to take care of her, your goal is to act with integrity. I think you've been extremely mindful of acting with integrity, even at times when it was hard and tempting not to. I think you've been extremely mindful of making sure that you stay connected with the kids, resulting in a stronger connection with the kids, right, but you know a lot of people sort of fling up their hands and walk away, or back away at least, and you did nothing of the sort. I think multiple times you've been really effectively assertive with your ex about things that were uncomfortable for you, like the weekly dinners and changing the format for that right, that was all you.

Mark:

Changing the format was one thing, but I don't know if I have ever been good about explaining to her why I also don't feel like I owe her that.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Yeah, no, you took care of yourself and probably threw that up your kids, right, because they can feel the tension, and you did a good job standing up for yourself and likewise, you know, when she came in through the garage and you asked for your keys back. These are not trivial things, right? These are interactions that are uncomfortable and require some navigation, and you did those things. And then I think you did a fantastic job reaching out for support, activating your network, writing that email and using it, despite the hesitation of clicking send. You know you reduced the discomfort to clicking send instead of writing it all out and kind of reinjuring yourself in the process every time, down to telling your friends what would be helpful for you. That's a very high level of skill, I think, in arranging support for yourself, of activating your support network. I think that's really remarkable.

Mark:

Similarly, when you took yourself on the trip you've been wanting to go to for a while. Yeah, that was great. The trip, by the way, more than it just being give yourself permission to do something, just the act of putting myself in a different context, in another country, helped me get away from that idea of like being the guy who's getting a divorce. You know which? I've been living in this context for a long time because every day I wake up and I'm like, oh yeah, I'm getting a divorce. But when I was there I would be like, wow, I'm the guy who's traveling right now. I'm, I'm not getting a divorce. No one needs to know that, right? Yeah?

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

there was kind of kind of an inflection point right, and my sense is that it wasn't just a social thing, it wasn't just about who knows what about you when you go through your day. It's also. It's not the first thing on your mind. First thing on your mind is what kind of crazy breakfast am I gonna have today? As opposed to oh wow, I'm getting a divorce and how am I going to figure out property, and that, I think, proved to be super helpful in a way that you didn't anticipate. Right. You just took yourself on a trip to be good to yourself. Then, it turns out, it's been such a boon to have a different context to be in and to kind of switch your primary identity for a little bit, but it had positive effects later on.

Mark:

Add that to the list of things a divorced dad should do in the beginning. For sure, it was just so helpful from a rest perspective. It's funny because when you have kids and you go on vacations, they're not really vacations or trips because you don't come back feeling refreshed, right. You just start tired from having to change diapers or whatever or manage their you know tablets or whatever. But that trip was so refreshing and restorative for me.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Just escaping the context, and did you take me Just escaping the context? And did you take it in terms of the timeline? Did you take it in the middle of discussions, after everything was settled already, before everything was even being discussed? Where was it in the timeline of the divorce?

Mark:

I was planning it during the divorce proceedings, but the trip happened to take place after the mediation was over yeah, so there was some.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

There was a good deal of certainty at that point, just a lot of emotional turmoil.

Mark:

Yes, dust was still in the air most of it was the emotional turmoil absolutely well.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

I think there were a lot of things you did really well to take care of yourself in the process and your kids.

Mark:

Thank you. I think a lot of that was because of the support network, right, the email thing was an idea of a friend, the trip was the idea of my esteemed therapist, just a lot of things. It's not like these things come with an instruction manual, but surrounding yourself with people who know what may be helpful for you or who have been there before, it makes all the difference.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

You may have beat me to the punch here, but I was going to ask if you have any last words for now to share with people who may be listening and really like at the very thick of it, at the very start listening and really like at the very thick of it, at the very start.

Mark:

I think the support network thing is huge, especially at the beginning, while you're being told that you're going through a divorce or I guess anything where your life is falling apart, like you go to dark places and there's a you know tell you a lot of lies. By surrounding yourself with the support network and with people who've been there before, you need those people to speak truth into your life, tell you and remind you who you are and just give you practical advice I think that's an incredibly important point, but we'll see the darkest and worst in ourselves and in our futures.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

A lot of people despair and reach really horrible places, and this is a good time to be in contact with people who know us well and can remind us who we are, like you said, and help us get through that extremely dark, extremely scary period. Okay, good, this was a very complete summary, thank you. Were there also current things you wanted to talk about?

Mark:

there's just that basketball thing. Yeah, that's strange. I know I'm just gonna say no, it's not like it's a big deal, but I was like what universe are you living in? It's a left fielder yeah, yeah our team.

Mark:

Usually we have an assistant coach for the team and I was an assistant coach last year and had a great time. And it was also helpful because, like, I'm not going to be there for myself and my children for the last game of the season because we have a vacation planned, so I'm going out in March. So I emailed out all the parents just saying, hey, we need an assistant coach because I'm not going to be here the last week, just saying, hey, we need an assistant coach because I'm not going to be here the last week. And so I mean, if I were to venture to guess, I think she was probably thinking oh yeah, mark had such a great time as assistant coach last year. You know he had such a great time. I don't know much about basketball, but it sounds like a lot of fun. So I think I want to just try it out.

Mark:

Something along those lines she had actually talked about with my older kid, I mean even before talking about it with me. And so you know, really you're supposed to use your kid as kind of messengers. So it kind of felt like that was kind of a gap or breach in that guideline or that rule. Maybe she just didn't feel like it was. So I had to then clear with my kid and say, hey, are you okay if I say no to mom, because I'm just not comfortable with her being my assistant coach? He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

Mark:

I was like you didn't have your heart set on her being your assistant coach, right? And he's like, oh, no, and so it was fine. I kind of thought maybe there'd be an inkling of it being okay. Maybe it can work if she's the assistant coach, at least I'll have someone to sub for me in. That last week, right. But then this week we also had the children's Christmas programs at school, like the little musical performance, and so we both went and I just really don't like being in the same room with her. So then I was like, oh, this is definitely not going to work if we coach basketball together. We're just not going to work.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

This is one being in the same room too, right? I mean you need to communicate and coordinate and coach the same team.

Mark:

This is the first year that the hoop is at 10 feet, so kids are just kind of hoisting it up there and so we're not really running any offense defense things. But last year was fun, you know, me and the coach. At first it turned out us being like just oh yeah, let's just get them to try to hoist it up there. But then by the end we were able to do three basic screens and it was really fun to watch, you know, and we did a little record, which was great.

Mark:

Yeah, I think I just like basketball because it just has a lot of life applications to it. It's about resilience and personal responsibility, having a short memory when it comes to mistakes, like. I remember last year one of the kids would sulk after he missed a shot and go off the deep end and I'd be like just put your head down and I had to just yell at him. So much about that Like. And then by the end he was like oh, coach, mark is my favorite teacher and I'm like I'm not even your teacher, but it's a really rewarding experience.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Yeah, a really rewarding experience. Yeah, sounds like maybe better separate for those.

Mark:

Oh yeah, there's no way it would have worked.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Okay, well, do you think? Break for now.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Great.

Mark:

Okay, I will see you next time and I'll let you know how my first basketball practice went. Yeah, maybe we'll talk about how to meet strangers online safe strangers yeah, yeah, that's good.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Thank you very much. I think today was really helpful. I think it'll be helpful for people to hear. I hope it was helpful for you to kind of run through the the whole thing too and kind of see the process it was helpful for you to kind of run through the whole thing too and kind of see the process.

Mark:

It was helpful for me. It wasn't traumatic or anything like that. I think it was. It's almost like pedestrian for me now just talking about it, which is great.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Yeah, there's kind of a desensitization that happens over time, which is important too, right. It just becomes a thing that happened. I mean, there's still weight to it, obviously, but less and less the more we talk about it and turn it into a thing that can be discussed.

Mark:

Maybe someday it'll be a thing that's so desensitized that where we could coach a basketball team together. I don't know. I mean, does it ever get to that point? I don't know.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

You know, honestly, that's not where I thought you're going to finish the sentence. I thought maybe one day it'll get so desensitized that I'll just feel okay when talking about it, but I didn't think you're going to take it to coaching together. It could, right. Some people interact and are okay with it and some people don't, and I think it really depends on the people and the history.

Mark:

I hope someday we'll get to the point where we can friendly again, but I don't think we'll ever get there as long as that guy is in the picture. I'm just not comfortable with him being there and being with my kids. Yeah, we'll see.

Eran Magen, Ph.D.:

Okay, good, thank you very much.

Mark:

Thanks, Eran, bye.

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