Divorcing Dads
Honest conversations with divorcing dads about staying connected to your kids while building a life that you love. Topics include co-parenting, fatherhood, divorce recovery, parenting tips, and emotional well-being.
Divorcing Dads
“Divorced” Doesn't Need To Be Your Identity
Four months after the divorce, Mark discusses rebuilding his identity, working through his emotions regarding his kids and his ex, and practical self care.
Topics include:
• The surprising benefit of traveling and of not having "being divorced" as one's primary identity
• How to share news of the divorce with friends and family, and the support it brings
• The joy of feeling seen and appreciated by our kids
--- The video Mark is referring to: What if My Ex Says Bad Things About Me to My Kids?
• How the kids are doing, 4 months after the physical separation
• Parenting schedules - how long should kids go without seeing the other parent?
• Responding to kids when they miss the other parent
• Managing the discomfort of real-time conversations with the ex, and considering the benefits of a-synchronous communication like texting or email
• Kids may spend less time thinking about the divorce than the parents
• Working through guilt and shame over the failed relationship
• Learning to enjoy time without the kids
• The fear and guilt of not being with kids for important events that happen when they're with the other parent
• Thinking about starting to date
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When you go through it, you just don't really see the light at the end of the tunnel. For me, I can honestly look back and say I'm happy that this happened. I am a happier person than I was. I'm discovering more about myself and who I am and who the kids are, and I wouldn't have believed you if you had told me that was what my life was going to be like a year ago.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Divorcing Dads podcast. My name is Dr Eran Magen. Join me for honest conversations with divorcing dads about their journey of healing. Our goal is to support and empower divorcing dads to stay connected with their children while living a life they love. To protect the privacy of the dads I speak with, we change their voice, as well as names, locations and other potentially identifying information. If you are feeling hopeless or unsafe, please call 988, which offers free and confidential counseling 24-7. You are not alone. Your kid's life will be better with you in it. Don't give up. That number again is 988. And now let's turn to today's episode.
Speaker 2:Mark and I started talking very soon after his ex left their home, and we spoke every couple of weeks, but only started recording our conversations about four months into the process. In this episode you'll hear the first recorded conversation. Mark had just come back from a trip that he gave himself as kind of a feel-better gift, and he talks about how that worked for him. We then move on to cover a wide range of topics, including how Mark continues to share the news about his divorce and getting support from people in his life, what time with the kids is like for Mark and what time away from the kids is like for Mark, and the kind of guilt and sadness that he feels when he's away from them, and how he's dealing with it, and then some thoughts about starting to date possibly. I hope you will enjoy and benefit from hearing this conversation. So here's Mark talking about his trip.
Speaker 1:I went with my dad and well, I guess I originally booked this vacation because I've been wanting to go to Denmark for a long time. You know, my ex never really wanted to go, so this is kind of after we divorced, you know, I found a free week for me where she had the kids and I had some free time to book a trip for her. And the timing thing just worked out and originally I was really hesitant to do it, I think, because I was kind of in a dark place and one of the things that you had told me was imagine that someone you loved was going through this, or your kids, and what would you want them to give themselves permission to do? And this was that thing themselves permission to do, and this was that thing. So I gave myself permission to book this trip and I had a great time.
Speaker 1:Denmark for me and just the kind of person that I am, it's the kind of trip that I enjoy, like it's a good mix of sightseeing and outdoorsy-ness, you know. There's like this good mix of hikes and stuff and things you can do. It's like kind of a foreign land where you can't pronounce anything. It's also a mix of kind of relaxing things you can do as well. I mean they have like hot springs and stuff, good food and things like that. There was like this fish stew that I can't pronounce. We had like the fermented shark, which was kind of a novelty, you know, I couldn't pronounce that either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds amazing. I think it's such a way to make. Lemonade is kind of a, I think, well, very overused expression. But you know it's, I guess, like a silver lining, right, like there's some positive in this, when you realize, oh, there's this thing I've been wanting to do all this time and now I can. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't need anyone to agree or to have permission or to participate, I can just go. And I think it's amazing, and I think that's an important way to support yourself, right, and this really difficult experience you're going through on your own.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it was nice to just get away from that too. Yeah, I think, day in and day out, I mean being in this, like whatever this is called going through the divorce, a process of divorce thing, and and that becoming part of my identity, you know, yeah, but going on this vacation kind of I don't know freed me from that a little bit, like being someone who's not going through a divorce but being someone who's just on vacation. Yeah, it's funny because right before I left for the trip, another friend of mine from college found out about the divorce. I guess my ex had posted a picture of her and her boyfriend, or her new boyfriend, or a fair partner, or whatever you want to call it, on social media and they were kind of like what the heck is this person? And so, yeah, they emailed or texted or whatever and they were just like, hey, I found out about this, do you want to meet up or talk? So I had drafted up this email that was like here's what's going on, so I don't have to talk about it.
Speaker 1:And I met up with this friend and I talked with him for like three hours anyway. Met up with this friend and I talked with him for like three hours anyway, and it turns out that he is actually coworkers with that guy. Oh, just like total, random coincidence, yeah, like they happen to be like in the same department, yeah, in their company. He didn't know him that well, but so that was kind of. That was like a kind of a weird yeah yeah, but yeah anyway. So this friend that I met up with was kind of like a friend from college and it's one of those friends that maybe we haven't talked in a long time, but it's just really easy to pick up where we left off yeah, clearly the three hours, and I guess it also answers the.
Speaker 2:The other question I had in my head and then realized you answered it by saying you talked for three hours, which is was it working together Any kind of a conflict of interest or some problem? But it seems like no.
Speaker 1:Not really. I mean, my friend was really sympathetic and really kind, you know, and said a lot of nice things. And really kind, you know, and said a lot of nice things. We left hoping to meet up more often and not due to, you know, like some tragedy or whatever. You know, I thought that that conversation would be a lot more painful than it was, and so I was kind of surprised and happy to have the support. It also felt really validating too, because it wasn't like I'm asking people to take sides or stuff or anything like that. But the words that were said were very affirming, you know, agreeing that I did do my best and I don't know, uh yeah, just affirming that I did do my best and that I didn't do anything wrong. And, as you know, that's important to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, kind of going back to that question that you were asking yourself a couple of weeks ago, right, no, maybe a month ago about what could you have done differently to prevent the divorce.
Speaker 1:essentially, yeah, Throughout all this I'm, you know, I'm able to rest in the knowledge that I did my best and that I'm continuing to do my best, you know, and taking care of the boys and just being above board on my relationship with my ex -wife.
Speaker 2:It's really nice that a friend found you, you know, reached out to you to offer support. Like so often, it's about the discomfort of reaching out to friends and telling them what's going on, like you were saying right, writing that email and just not having to reinvent it every time, but then to have a friend come to you and offer such nice support and validation, that's really wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just before I left it was like, yeah, one more thing to deal with before I leave. But uh, but it was okay. Yeah, it turned out to be a good thing in the end. How?
Speaker 2:um. How are your kids doing?
Speaker 1:My kids are doing well, I think. Uh, the older one is running for student government, you know. So it's always just nice and, you know, I think we're at this stage where it's it's just a fun age, you know, right, or they're getting interested into things and they're just they're trying to find their own interests and hobbies and things like that and just trying things out and we're able to be really supportive of that, which is nice. My oldest trying out for student government or whatever, is not something that me or my ex would ever have done and it's not something that we did when it was his age, you know, or even older. You know he's like just putting him out there and trying it out, you know like, okay, cool, yeah it's either totally his own thing or some recessive gene showing itself and you know there's like other things too.
Speaker 1:Like he kind of got into computer programming for a little bit and and I'm in tech, but it's not something I pushed it was just like he was playing with his legos one day and one of his legos is like a programmable one and so you like drag and drop pictures or whatever. It's very pictorial, so you like drag and drop the instructions or whatever you know like on how to you like drag and drop the instructions or whatever you know like on how to make the legos do things and stuff. You know there's like this sensor and this motor and things like that. It's um, very like stem toy. You know that's great.
Speaker 1:So he was like, uh, I know you don't use this at work, so what do you guys use at work? And so I I showed him just a little bit about what we do, you know like of our code repositories at work. And so he was like, can I learn about that? And I was like, okay, and then so we got some books about like the Python coding language from the library, you know and now he's really into that.
Speaker 1:I was like I didn't really push for this or anything, but now I'm glad that he's into it and interested in something that I do, which so that was nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's actually before. I assume, like what's nice about this that he's interested in something that you do?
Speaker 1:I want to say that it's nice that that he sees me, you know. So that makes me feel seen, which is nice. You know, I'm not usually thinking about that, I'm just I think about how wonderful it is. Um, it's the sense of wonder at the mind of a child, and I really enjoy that you know, the creation of life is miraculous there's no other word for it, right?
Speaker 2:I mean you take a couple of, you know, pieces of like vaguely life stuff and then you combine them and then suddenly there's like a whole new life coming out. That's astonishing to me, but it's kind of abstract, like I don't actually see it happening. You know, I mean I see the birth, but that's of abstract, like I don't actually see it happening. You know, I mean I see the birth, but that's that's really it and it's kind of awe-inspiring but it's. I don't see the moment of of life creation. But observing cognition grow, that to me is a totally mind-blowing miracle. Like human cognition is just unbelievable to see the baby mind and then the toddler mind and then the child mind, just exponentially soak in information, understanding. I have no other word for it than miraculous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:So student government and programming. And I wonder, did he have any kind of inclination toward that six months ago?
Speaker 1:No, I don't think so. I think the student government thing is definitely a I don't even know where it. I think it's just like at this age they don't even have some huge concern about what other people think of them. Right, great benefit. So they're just like, yeah, let's's try it, let's see what happens. Right, my younger one, um, at the end of the last school year there was like this talent show, yeah, so he just like whistled a song. I mean, he's like he's in first grade and he whistled the song and he didn't care, it was just like whistling. I mean, other kids were up there playing like their violin or piano or jungling and stuff like that, and he was just whistling my talent is not caring what you all think and his teacher sent me the video of it and we were both like, wow, I wish I had the courage to do something like that.
Speaker 1:And we were both just kind of marveling at the self-confidence that he was asserting.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know at all that this is true, but I know that I take such amazing, such great delight at my kid being interested in being more like me. It feels very reassuring to me in terms of our relationship. It feels very reassuring to me in terms of our relationship, so not not just the part that you said about being seen, but also the part where he actively like, he clearly thinks it's good to be me or that there's value in being like me, and so he tries to learn some of the things or do some of the things.
Speaker 1:That, to me, is just very reaffirming of of the relationship as well, and I think that that just kind of goes along with that video you posted. You know it's like the kids see you. You know they don't have to go by what they hear about you, they see it for themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they have direct experience. Yeah, and what they see is obviously good if they want to be, if he wants to learn how to do what you do and for you to teach him that.
Speaker 1:The younger one still does kind of sulk a little bit. I mean, he's still pretty sad about the divorce thing. The last couple of weeks, you know, he said something like I wish we weren't divorced or I'm sometimes sad and I really don't know why, but it's usually around like bedtime, you know, cause he's kind of tired. But even then it's kind of hard to articulate those things.
Speaker 2:This is flipped from what was before right Cause before you said your older one was more upset.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, uh, the older one would get. I mean, at the beginning he was really upset about how quickly things were moving, especially with my ex-wife and the new guy or the new guy in his life, you know and he had said things to the effect of like this whole thing is mommy's fault or you know. Stuff like that, I don't know. He hasn't really had an episode like that for a while now.
Speaker 2:But then you see the younger one being more upset.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the younger one, yeah, you know, I just think a week apart from the other parent is just too long. Yeah, he'll say things like I miss mommy. And I'll say, you know, you'll see her on video chat tonight or tomorrow's Wednesday and you'll see her for dinner. And then he kind of feels better and goes off and does his thing. You know, yeah, or yesterday he was just tired, you know, like he fell asleep right when his head fit the pillow.
Speaker 2:Another amazing skill of kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, another amazing skill of kids. Yeah, yeah. And like we talked about before, I'm trying to just acknowledge those feelings and not feed into it like oh, I miss mommy too and be really cryptic, because that doesn't help and so what does it look like?
Speaker 1:these days. I just kind of acknowledge the feelings like it's okay to be sad, it's normal to be sad about these kind of things, yeah, but things are better now. I don't know if you noticed, pete, but mommy and daddy are both kind of doing better apart. We're doing a lot better apart than we ever did together, and I know you can't tell, but we are happier. So I said that. And then this most recent time it was, you know, just those other things like you're going to see her tomorrow, so maybe it'll be better then and he was like, okay, okay, okay, you know.
Speaker 2:So right now you say a week apart is too much, but I remember that there's a mid week meet and that it's no longer at your homes. Yeah, but like a pickup a pickup and a drop off midweek.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just dropped them off at. You know, this week they're with me, so I just dropped them off at their mom's place on Wednesday and she drops them back off when they're done, so, like at seven 30.
Speaker 2:But still it feels like a week, basically, of not seeing her and that being too much for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't know if it's that serious, but I you know he'll occasionally just say I miss her, you know? Yeah, I don't actually know if he actually says I miss daddy when he's at mama's place.
Speaker 2:That's the big question, right? That would always be nice to know you know.
Speaker 1:At the same time, you know I am okay if he doesn't say that. I think it kind of indicates that I'm a constant in his life, you know yeah like I don't need to miss daddy because he's just going to be here when I get back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a really good point. And do we? Do we engender in our kids a sense of something is missing or a sense of something is complete and that it's OK, like as long as they're happy coming to us? Do we need them to miss us when we're not there?
Speaker 1:Right, right, that's a bit, you know. I mean, I feel like if we need that, that's a bit unfair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's needing something from the kids, right, if we need them to miss us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, speaking of the midweek thing, as my wife I mean not my wife, my ex-wife I'm so used to saying that as she dropped off the kids on Wednesday at my place, we did have to stop and like do some signing of papers because we had to split up the cars so we had to retitle them and things like that. And then she also said oh, by the way, you know a new boyfriend and I have been meeting with a therapist. She was like I was going to tell you this last week, but you were in Denmark. And I was like thank God you didn't talk to me while I was in Denmark. I was going to tell you this last week, but the therapist had mentioned that we shouldn't have to keep asking our kids for permission to meet up anymore. It shouldn't be a question that we should just go ahead with it. I mean, cause they're trying to figure out when the family's in like a healthy way or whatever. And the therapist was like don't give them the option, just do it. And so I was like okay.
Speaker 2:So not asking for permission, for what activity?
Speaker 1:For being together, like getting together. I think, like before this, she would kind of give him the choice, or the illusion of choice, whether or not to hang out with that guy and his kid, you know yeah, yeah, I see illusion of choices because, like there have been several times where she took him to meet up with them without even telling them anyway. So it was kind of like stage is like an accident you know, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, we accidentally ran into them at this park and whatever, or things like that. So I was like you weren't really giving them the choice in the first place, but okay, but I guess she just felt like the need to tell me that for some reason and you know, I kind of came back with well, look, you know that thing. I just back with well, look, you know that thing. I just said with you didn't give him the choice in the first place. You know, you accidentally quote unquote ran into him at the park with nothing, you know, like things like that Right, like had video chats with them in front of them.
Speaker 1:So I don't know what you needed a therapist to tell you. She was like, oh yeah, those were mistakes. Now we're just going to be overtly intentional about it. I was like whatever. And then I was like why are you telling me this? I'm like I'm never going to approve of this person in our entire lives. I mean, I told her that Like I told her expressly like he cheated on his own spouse, you, and led you to cheat on your spouse. So I'm never going to be okay with this person, I'm never going to consider him a good person in our kids lives. So she was kind of like a little taken back from that and like I was like oh well, I wasn't asking for your permission or your approval.
Speaker 1:I was like okay, well yeah, it's kind of a shame I'm not asking for permission yeah, after that I just started rambling a little bit and I was just like I'm still not. I mean I don't approve this guy, but I just won't say that around the kids. You know, I won't tell the kids what you did or speak ill of you or that guy. I guess my only concern like and then I reiterated what we talked about, which was like where I said my only concern with him is like how they feel about him, like that guy. You know, as far as that guy's concerned and that's pretty much all I said I mean I was kind of fumbling at that point because I was just trying to stay aboard and, you know, processing this and like well, she was like looking at me and stuff so what was the context for this conversation?
Speaker 2:This was an in-person conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we were just like downstairs in the garage. She had come to drop off the kids.
Speaker 2:Oh, I see. So she came to drop off the kids, brought the papers and then you were signing things and then she told you about this, yeah, Like, by the way, we've been seeing a therapist or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, by the way, we've been seeing a therapist or something. Yeah, I don't really know why she felt the need to talk about that, but yeah, you know. But I felt pretty good ultimately, even though I was fumbling around, at the end I felt pretty good, like I said what I needed to say. I hope that, number one, she understood my position on it. Number two, that she'll never bring that up with me again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. I wonder too why she brought it up with you, and do you have no interest in knowing what her policy is regarding the kid?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:About different things.
Speaker 1:I don't, because at this point I've gotten pretty used to her just doing whatever she wants, you know. So I don't know why she felt the need to tell me that. Maybe she felt the need to tell me that, maybe that now she's a therapist or whatever.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting, yeah, so you don't complain about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I've never complained about it. I've only ever written to her about Asher's feelings about it. Yeah. Except that one time when she took them to the park and then ran into him and that was a violation of the parenting agreement, and just that one time. Then she told me the next time and I was like, okay, well, agreement satisfied, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting. The hypothesis you have here is that she's telling you to let you know that this is done with the blessing of a therapist and therefore it's going to happen, so you shouldn't object. But you had no intention of objecting anyway yeah, either that.
Speaker 1:Or like there's some some feelings of guilt over whatever she was had done in the past or whatever. Like hey, I'm not a bad person because somebody else said this was okay to do. Somebody else who I'm paying money to told me it's a good idea.
Speaker 2:Right that I was okay. A disinterested third party that I happen to be employing yeah, yeah, I get the sense of your general emotional reaction, at least right now is essentially a shrug.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of a shrug because it's kind of like you're an adult and I can't prevent her from doing that stuff, I don't. I mean, I kind of made my peace with that and I don't know why she had to bring it up again. But I'm also glad that she did, because it was it gave me an opportunity to tell her this is never going to happen with me. You know, this acceptance or approval of that particular's presence impeded Nasher's lives. That's never going to happen.
Speaker 2:And that felt important to tell her yeah, I think so what did it do for you?
Speaker 1:I think for me it was just I mean, it was 75 for my sake and 25 for the sake of our kids, you know. But obviously the 75 was very much like my own ego and pride and stuff and just my own need to be seen and have my thoughts be known. And the 25% was hey, I want my kid's mother to know that I think there's a bad influence in their lives, like kind of register your protest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I don't think what you're doing is a healthy thing for them. And I talked to my sister about this too and I was like, well, you know like how, after you have these intense conversations and you kind of go back and you're like, oh, I wish I would have said this. It was like something to the effect of like you're just saying this to make you feel better. You know, do whatever you need to make yourself feel better. Yeah, that's what. Do whatever you need to make yourself feel better. Yeah, that's what I was going to say, that's what I wish I had said.
Speaker 2:In real time comment on the process of her telling you this and you telling her that. It's clear to you that she's just trying to make herself feel better.
Speaker 1:Just like to do whatever you need to make yourself feel better. But this is what I think you know and it's I'm not going to change. And my sister was like you know, it's good you didn't say that. I mean, I wish you would have said that, but it's probably good that you didn't say that, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would have been right. You get that scene of you get to walk away from an explosion in slow motion, but still, maybe it's not an explosion that you need.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, I think that's a good analogy. Yeah, walking away from the explosion yeah, so I didn't need to say that, and so I'm kind of glad that I didn't Was the conversation itself civil, comfortable.
Speaker 1:I don't think it was comfortable. I don't think any of our conversations have been comfortable for a while, I mean even like before the separation. But I don't think any of our conversations have been comfortable for a while, I mean even like before the separation. But I think our communication had worn down so much so it was just like we were just kind of talking in starts and stops, you know, I think, uh, for a long time we had lost a lot of that flow we used to have when you're in a good relationship with someone.
Speaker 1:I think our conversations now are full of like starts and stops, because we're like constantly second guessing what the other person is trying to say. You know what they mean, even when we're just coordinating calendars and stuff. It's so much easier in text than to do it in person. Yeah, because in person we're just talking in all these. I don't know what it is. It's like just starts and stops, you know. Or we're like maybe interrupting each other or whatever, because we're just not even sure of our mannerisms or whatever, or like whatever, like we're not accustomed to the way the other person like. I totally feel like that when speaking with her now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so total reshuffling of the communication. Yeah. Yeah of the communication. Yeah, yeah, and as part of that, like suspicion or concern about her motives and talking and sort of you know, walking carefully across the minefield, or or are you second guessing yourself as you're saying things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's all of that. I mean, I think it's both of those things. Like part of it is second guessing myself, making sure that I'm communicating clearly, or what I'm trying to say, you know. Yeah. So there's like no second guessing or no room for second guessing, and I think some of it's also like, yeah, I just want to make sure it's perceived the right way. Luckily, we don't have many of those in-person interactions anymore.
Speaker 2:I think I'm quoting a lot of this as feeling like there's little opportunity to recover in case a mistake happens or somebody misspeaks or misunderstands. Like you know, in a relationship that has trust built into it, then you know, if somebody says something, even offensive, the other person can say that was offensive, and then there's an opportunity to repair. Or if somebody says something wrong and then says no, I didn't mean that, the other person says, oh, what did you mean? As opposed to like, no, you said that and that's a signed contract. Now, yeah, um, yeah. So I think I can imagine if everything needs to be done correctly, right, because everything is fragile and any kind of damage or misstep can lead to really bad results, then you slow way down in communication to make sure that there's no mistake happening. You're kind of you're playing slow chess. You're not playing some war, you know with a friend, you're playing chess with a right, an opponent yeah, it's very much like that.
Speaker 1:Well, I wouldn't say chess, but um, yeah, it's just like a lot of stop and starting. Yeah, it's awkward.
Speaker 2:The communication is awkward, you know yeah, yeah, and I guess, like you said, there is an alternative which is written communication, and I guess that's at least for you. It's more comfortable, right? It gives you some separation and time to think and consider your response and consider what she said yeah, I mean it's easy for me because it's kind of like my job.
Speaker 2:you know, in management, I mean you're emails all the time you know, I wonder if it really may be a factor, right, that kind of like a different facet of you is engaged, like a different persona, and you can kind of manage the situation. Yeah, I think so. A different library is loaded right right In your head. Yeah, yeah exactly. That's the entire capacity of my coding analogy.
Speaker 1:That's great. I love life applications of engineering concepts yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so your older kid seems to be doing better right now, Because for a little while he was kind of bubbling right to a point that you were concerned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was really raging a lot about the other guy or about my ex or his mom seeing this other guy, you know. Yeah. I think he's kind of accepted it too, and I use the word accepted meaning like realize he can't do anything about it, she's just going to do whatever she wants to do. So he's kind of going along with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he's less actively upset about it, which is still meaningful, right? I mean you can realize that you can't change something and still be upset about it for a long time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:At least he's less upset about it, or maybe not, I don't know, but that's really. I'm glad to hear that he's not raging regularly. Now, that's not a healthy place to be, yeah. But then some of that intensity, some of that energy moved underground and is now coming out of your younger kid thing is mostly uh, he just says he misses her, yeah, and he doesn't really go much into the specifics of what he misses. Just yeah, yeah, and how.
Speaker 1:How often does that happen that I'll say that when he's with you uh, this week it happened twice so far on tuesday night, which was the night before they were gonna have dinner on wednesday, and then I think he said it last night, but also last night was like a really tired night, you know.
Speaker 2:The other times were not when he was especially tired.
Speaker 1:No, he was tired too. It's usually at night when he says it yeah. At the same time, it's kind of like there's a bias there too, cause in the evenings is when we would have family time anyway. Otherwise they're in school and doing homework and oh, that's right so that's mixing up two things at once right here.
Speaker 2:He's tired, and that's the time that you see him yeah, yeah it's hard to say which is driving which and how insistent is he about it, or like how? I guess two questions. One is how upset is he when he says that, and two is how insistent is he about it? Or like how? I guess two questions. One is how upset is he when he says that, and two is how insistent is he about it?
Speaker 1:It's not too bad. I mean, he'll only like say it once and then I'll address it with either like you know, like the whole thing about you know you see her or you'll be on FaceTime or video chat and that thing, and then he's okay after that, or with like the whole thing about like you know, things are better now that we're apart, and then he just goes on and does his next thing. You know like he moves on.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so he doesn't get really stuck on that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think I may be presumptuous in saying this, but I think their identity is not too tied up as being the children of divorced parents, as we are being divorced people or well, at least mine is, anyway. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know this connects to what you were saying before about how they don't really care about what other people think. I think kids are still, you know, very blissfully egocentric. Yeah, and it's mostly you know they're they're the main character and they're showing their head. Yeah, I guess we all are in our heads, but point is, there's still them. You know some of their situation has changed, but there's a lot more to their lives than the state of relationships between their parents.
Speaker 1:Right, right, which is good.
Speaker 2:So I think I think it's a very good insight that, yeah, they probably spend less time thinking about the fact that you're divorced than you spend about thinking that you're divorced. Yeah, that's a really good point. So right now, how does it work? She will drop him off with you on Sunday, right?
Speaker 1:Yep, sunday afternoon.
Speaker 2:Sunday afternoon. So there's that. Sunday, monday, tuesday, wednesday. They see her again. Yeah. And then Thursday, friday, saturday and Sunday afternoon they go to her and then it's the mirror image. Yeah, exactly Monday, tuesday, so it's two days that they don't see her, and then Wednesday, and then three days, yeah, that they don't see her.
Speaker 2:I mean it seems reasonable because they're I'm sorry that I keep asking, but they're six and nine, is that right? Or seven and nine? Yeah, seven and nine, yeah, on the face of it seems reasonable. Did you notice if he says that more the first half of the week, like before wednesday or after wednesday?
Speaker 1:no, one time was before wednesday and one time was after, so one time was last night. So like both and I guess yeah yeah, both.
Speaker 2:And do they they also have like FaceTime or something in between? Yeah, they do like every night yeah, most every night yeah and was that the times that he said that he missed her? Were those before or after the FaceTime?
Speaker 1:It was before. Yeah, like last night he was getting kind of apprehensive because it was getting kind of late and she hadn't texted. She was available yet Because she works a lot on the week that I have the kids, because that's when she makes up most of her overtime, so sometimes she's working late. So I was like let's get ready for bed and see if she calls. And I like, five minutes before bedtime she was like, oh, let's do a really quick one, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Can I? Can I volunteer an opinion here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:I think that's actually an important point.
Speaker 2:I think when something may or may not happen, it's much more on our mind than when we know for sure it's going to happen, or we know for sure it's not going to happen.
Speaker 2:And so I think it may be not just in terms of whether he thinks about her or not. It's fine for him to think about her obviously she's his mom but there's some tension that happens there, right. His mom, okay, but there's some tension that happens there, right? If he wants to talk, which is, again, natural and reasonable, if he wants to talk but he's not sure if it's going to happen, this can create more tension, for example, than if he wants to talk and he knows it's not going to happen, right? I don't know if it's possible, given her work context, but I wonder if it may be possible to have some sort of a cutoff time for her to tell you if they're going to talk, so that when they come back from school they know, or maybe later. I'm just, I'm brainstorming here, but basically a way to not leave him waiting until bedtime wondering if it's going to happen. Ok, like all the way to bed because bedtime.
Speaker 1:Then it would make sense for him to be like I miss mommy because, like now, it's becoming clear they're not going to talk, right, and I think I could work that out with her. Yeah, maybe not so much a cutoff time, but establishing it like, hey, is it going to be likely that we're going to talk tomorrow, you know, even at the end of the call from the previous or that night, just to say, hey, tomorrow night we're going to be working late, so I won't be able to facetime, or I won't be working late, so we'll definitely be able to facetime and we'll talk tomorrow yeah, I'm trying to avoid the maybes right the tomorrow working late, so I might not be able to call then.
Speaker 2:Now you know, in the mind of a seven-year-old this can be like well you know, maybe she'll make a super effort and call.
Speaker 1:Let's see if she wants to talk to me oh well, knowing asher, he used to be okay with that, like he, you know, like we've had that before and he's been okay where he was. Like she said like, oh, I might call you back later or I might not be able to talk because I'm at work and because I might not be available because this is an emergency or something, and he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay. So, yeah, it doesn't really affect him that much, but yeah, yeah, I get it At least having that expectation there. Even when I was in Denmark I was FaceTiming them whenever I could, but there was a big time difference. So it was like maybe like 2.15 in the afternoon in Denmark and it was like 7.30, 7.15, you know, so we could talk before they went to school. But if I knew I was going to be out in some remote area with terrible cell coverage, then I told them like hey.
Speaker 1:I'm probably not going to be able to FaceTime you guys tomorrow, and so they were okay with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, that makes sense. So for you, when you say probably not, that's like a pretty high probability than not, like kind of assume that it's not going to happen. When you say probably not yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is what you're thinking she might be able to do as well with regards to work, Right right. Yeah, I think that can create a little, a little bit of peace. I mean, I think we're working on the margins here, right like this doesn't sound like a big issue, but I can see it being, you know, I know that I mean, if I have somebody that I want to talk with and may or may not, like it's on my mind right, exactly it's.
Speaker 1:It's not too big of an issue, but it's something that we could kind of make better. Yeah, improve that at minimum. Yeah. Other thing, that not too much, just kind of taking stock of things from like that 10 000 foot point of view. You know, I think I am. I am doing a lot better than I was three or four months ago, which, of course, is always where you want to be right. But I feel like I think there for a while I was like in this fake it till you make it mode, telling myself certain things and then trying to believe them. But now I'm actually like when I've said before, like I did the best with what I knew over the course of my marriage and stuff, I was probably like 60 to 70% sure of that being true, but now I'm like really sure of that being true.
Speaker 2:Can you, you know, for both our sakes go a little more in depth into that. What is the thing that you were faking to be making and that you now have made?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, just trying to like survive at the beginning, you know, with the processing and the initial shock, with the divorce, and I think for the first few months, just trying to hold on to whatever's good, to kind of get used to it, to get you to the next day, right, I think that's what I mean by fake it till you make it, because not necessarily like saying things or believing things that are untrue, um, but whatever tiny bits or shreds of evidence that there are that indicate to you that you were an, are a good person and you are and we're doing the right thing, and you get to kind of cling onto those, right, yeah, maybe you're not completely sure that they're true or there was something maybe you're blind to, you know, initially. So that's kind of like the thinking part, but the making it. I think having like, talked through it and having lived it even just this past week with her in the garage, like talking with other people, uh, like, uh, talking to my friend before I left for Denmark those things are validating experiences to me.
Speaker 2:The image that I have in my mind when you say this is kind of like watching a movie that has nice bits and scary bits, or scary bits and really scary bits, and having our hands cover our eyes and occasionally peeking through. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And at the beginning, maybe when we're coming in the first time, we're watching that movie.
Speaker 2:Basically we're coming in so shaken up and so confused and so shocked and it's important that we actually cover our eyes when the really bad bits are showing and we only look at the stuff that can give us something positive.
Speaker 2:But then later on, since we're basically watching the movie again and again or maybe it's a show, maybe it's a weekly show, right, but has similar content week to week, yeah, but in future weeks and as we become more settled and and have a better sense of ourselves and get more validation, maybe, or or just become more grounded and more centered, then we can tolerate just watching the whole show and actually feel okay throughout because we don't, we're more stable, right, the person watching the show is more stable. We can tolerate and be okay seeing all of the pieces and not just some of the pieces. I guess what I'm saying is that it sounds to me like it during, during that initial period when it was really just acutely distressing, you had to manage your attention really carefully, not think too much about the stuff that was really upsetting and especially think as much as you could about the things that could make you feel good. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, and then over time, I mean it sounds like now your aperture is fully open, right, and then over time, I mean it sounds like now your aperture is fully open, right, Like you can see and consider and take in anything and it's not too destabilizing for you. I mean it sounds like right now it's not destabilizing for you at all. You're very firmly rooted in your sense of self and your values and your life and your relationship with your kids and you're able to tolerate. The totality of your situation is really different from a few months ago. I guess that's passing through my filter. That's.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm taking out from what you're saying yeah I hope that that's the case, like as you say, that I'm thinking just all the little incidences over the past several weeks, I guess, and destabilizing I guess you said destabilizing and sometimes they were destabilizing and like, like her and that guy and you know, yeah, and like her and the guy and how it affected the kids that were upsetting.
Speaker 1:yeah, like we kind of bring things crashing. Will he like bring things crashing down over my like? Overall, yeah, but then. But then with what happened this last Wednesday with the whole her telling me those things in the garage, I think I hope maybe I turned a corner with that and that incidence wasn't so destabilizing to me. I feel like I was able to handle that Okay and I was like able to assert my own feelings and my own thoughts about her opinions about the situation and, I think, have a measured amount of concern for myself and the kids. Uh, in that, and not let that affect me at least overly much, too much, you know yeah, to not become too destabilized, and when you become destabilized, you recover yeah right yeah, I don't know exactly what it was that led to that.
Speaker 1:Maybe it maybe it was being able to talk to my friend before the trip, or maybe it was the trip itself, or maybe it was time. You know, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:But it feels like there was an inflection point sometime around the time of the trip whether it's the trip or something else, we don't know but there was some sort of a you feel, an internal qualitative shift in how you're relating to your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so yeah.
Speaker 1:That sounds really meaningful, yeah yeah, or, you know, even if it was just the video you were showing also helped too. Or, like we talked about, you were saying that our kids will see us for who we are for themselves. It doesn't matter what anyone else says what, what your ex says about you to them, or, you know, you know that kind of carries over to that too, to where your ex made you destabilizing things or like hurting me, uh, bring on an affair partner too soon around the kids. But those things don't destabilize me because I know that I'll always be the constant, you know. Yeah, I don't know, we'll see. You know, hopefully it could be. Just that thing itself wasn't really a big deal, so maybe something else will be a bigger deal and not too destabilizing. Who knows?
Speaker 2:Well, something's going to happen for sure, right? It's not that we achieve this. I mean, maybe it will happen. I hope that it will, but it seems unlikely that we'll reach some point of total enlightenment and just never experience upset again. I think it's more about the frequency, the intensity and the duration of the upset. Basically, as we become more grounded and as we become more skilled, we can decrease all of those become more grounded and as we become more skilled, we can decrease all of those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely think it's helpful. You know, with a lot of the, when I talk to you, we talk about things in terms of reframing how we do things or the framework, uh, like what is it called? The where you reframe? It is like the rule in which I go by when I think about such and such thing and this, and that you know, those kind of reframing things have been really helpful.
Speaker 2:I mean, first, I'm glad to hear it and secondly, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, just in general, when we talk and I bring up, you know, certain questions or certain doubts, and then you respond with oh well, maybe you think about it this way or that way. Like, for instance, I can think of two examples, like one of I mean both of which we've talked about before. One was like giving yourself permission to do the things to take care of yourself, you know, yeah. And then the reframing thing you, what you explained was what would you want for your children or someone you love to give themselves permission to do, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:The other thing was like, um, like a couple of weeks ago, I was struggling with this thought of like, you know, like, even though I did the best that I could in our relationship and I did all these things, I did all these chores, I took care of the kids, otherwise, I felt like a pretty good father, tried to meet her needs and stuff, and she felt like all that stuff is still not worth, it was worth leaving me for. And you talked about it in a way of like, oh, let's reframe. It's not like she left you, but it's like you built this house together and I forgot what the exact specific thing was, but it wasn't like she left me, it was like she left the relationship she left, uh, like the house that we built together yeah, and I think that the specific example or the analogy that I used there was that, like it's not only about you, your relationship is a house that also requires some maintenance when when issues come up and you were saying that she was basically never willing to maintain the relationship Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It needed to be a relationship that has no trouble at all for it to work. But relationships just naturally develop friction points and tears, like everything, like any house, doesn't matter how well built it is. At some point. It's going to be a leak somewhere or something, and you need to be able to even to at least acknowledge it and, ideally, be willing to address it.
Speaker 1:You said that she wasn't really willing to do either right. So it wasn't like she wasn't willing to invest in me and there was something inherently wrong with me per se, but it was like the relationship. She wasn't willing to put any work into maintaining the relationship, which was very much true. So, yeah, those kinds of things were really helpful. There's definitely more examples than just those two. I'm just trying to think of them, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I mean, there may not be a more obvious thing for me to say. But I think it's good to talk about these things right and just hear other ways of thinking about them, because if it's just us in our heads, like we're just, we're just rehashing the same material, and if we're in a self-blaming mood, then that's all we're going to generate yeah and I imagine I mean you're saying you definitely love being in a self-blaming mood, yeah and you were saying about.
Speaker 2:You know, talking with a friend for three hours and having a friend to be validating and affirming, it's huge, it feels so good and so important. Of course, you know, ideally we want to be able to do some self-validation and be able to maybe get ourselves out of self-blame mode, but it's not always easy to do by ourselves, especially when the situation is kind of extreme. Yeah, like it has been for you. Yeah, when the situation is kind of extreme. Yeah, like it has been for you yeah.
Speaker 1:So maybe, on that note also, how are you taking care of yourself these days? Well, there was the trip, you know. So that was nice, yeah, it was just nice to get away and then just kind of be able to and even when I was away to just kind of be able to look at things from a different perspective, you know, I mean I don't know what different perspective that is exactly, but just I mean, I guess, to just think about things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like you said also to yeah, to not be in it also means to not have that be maybe such a central part of your identity. Yeah, a little bit. Like you said about your kids too, right, like it seems healthy to not have that be the main. You know, the first thing you said about yourself, right, when you describe yourself to a hypothetical new person like hi, I just recently got divorced, or I'm in the process of getting divorced, or like, maybe that doesn't have to be the first thing, yeah, yeah. Second, or the third, right, yeah, I think being in a totally different context lets you do that. Like, oh, I'm a guy who takes trips and I have things to talk about. There are people here and turns out I like fermented shark I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, that was pretty gross.
Speaker 1:Uh, that fermented shark, but it was like. It's like you're saying, having that not be like you know, the center of my identity. It's almost like when you're writing and you're just trying to get the assignment done and you kind of write terribly because you just try to write and get it done, versus like when you're proofreading someone else's writing and you have something invested in it. It's like, I don't know, when you're not like in the thick of it and you're not trying to just get something done or get through it, you have a totally different perspective on it yeah, there's less, less time pressure and, I guess, less pressure in general to to figure it out right.
Speaker 2:So there's there's time to just kind of look at it and maybe feel it, but not necessarily do something about it. Right now there's more space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like my sister and I always do this Like she sends me something to proofread and it's all marked up, because I'm like using passive voice here and that doesn't really make sense with the section and or it doesn't flow, or whatever. And then I always send her something and and then she's also like you're using passive voice and I'm like, oh, okay, it also doesn't flow out and I'm like, okay, I think it's just like when you're in the middle of your thing, you don't do it.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, yeah, and I think in this example maybe you're writing something and then you go take a trip to the outside of the world and you read a dare and you find all these things yeah, yeah, that's basically what I felt like. Yeah yeah, so you got which really does sound like you know some shift in your identity, right? It's the same as sending it to your sister. It's like you're letting somebody else look at your situation and that somebody else is you in a totally different context of life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but to answer your question, I just got back from the trip and, like this week, I immediately picked up the kids and then here today, you know, I got back at 3 am Because the flight was delayed by a little bit. So I got back at 3 am and the next day I picked up the kids at like 8 o'clock from my ex-wife's place because she needed to go to work or something that day. So I picked up early that Sunday instead, and so where we talked about it, we discussed about it, you know. So I had to pick them up at 8 that day and I was super jet like the whole day.
Speaker 1:But I don't know, I don't know if this is, I don't know if I'm copping out to this answer how I'm taking care of myself, but I just this week of being with them has been good. Being with them has been very fulfilling, I guess, enjoyable, refreshing, nourishing, nourishing. Yeah, it's not perfect, right, but you know like there's definitely some yelling that happens sometimes and but we went to school and he forgot some things and I'm like, oh my gosh, like things that are frustrating here and there. It's not perfect like a fairytale or anything, but even then it's like in the apologizing for yelling or things like that. Those, those are fulfilling and you know, I don't know how else to say it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hear you there. They're wholesome. It's like I mean, this is what life should be like, this is what life is about.
Speaker 1:I just really enjoyed being their dad. I enjoyed being single. I got to say people keep telling me oh, it's just for now, you're gonna want to date again.
Speaker 2:I don't know, man, yeah I get to sleep star-shaped on the bed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can eat out of the pod I just don't have to deal with another person's schedule. I don't have, like, only have to answer to myself. And you know, I don't have to answer about someone else's feelings, just me and my kids, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but actually I don't know if that's like, if I'm just thinking that being in a relationship is going to be just like being with my ex-wife again, because that's the only relationship I've really ever been in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very good point and, as usual, very astute of you to note right. I mean, if you only have one model, astute of you to to note right, I mean if you only have one model, you might have assumed that it's it's only ever like that, right? Although I guess I mean you know other people in relationships too, right?
Speaker 1:so presumably, yeah, heard from them about and I know like and I know like academically not all women are like my ex-wife, but but it's just more of like a concern with myself. You know like I'm always going to be worrying about, like what this person's thinking, or, or if this person's happy or comfortable or whatnot, or maybe it's concerned with my own unhealthiness and being in a relationship in terms of your own over focusing on your partner's needs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or like oversensitivity, I, I guess for what it's like, you know, just yeah, for being, I think, just like being in the course of our marriage, our relationship with her, I was very sensitive to her tone of voice, yeah, or I don't know. I maybe I could have been more sensitive to tone of voice and some there's a lot't know I maybe I could have been more sensitive to tone of voice, and so there's a lot of things I didn't know about. I let that affect me a lot. I don't know. This whole thing about being in a relationship in the future is probably going to be a whole nother session.
Speaker 2:You think, you think just one or maybe more than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just think there's going to be old demons that I have no interest in having in the new relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like you said, I mean this is 100% of your experience as far as your kind of internal Bayesian encounter goes. It's like this is 100% going to happen. Exactly the same way again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, it's not even just that. I think it's like the energy expenditure.
Speaker 2:I'm not ready for the energy expenditure of caring for you said. Right now you you're enjoying just not having to worry about anyone other than your kids, which feels like worrying about them or caring for them feels awesome and nourishing and satisfying and you don't need somebody else to worry about right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's the extent of the self-care I've been doing. I think I could probably do a little more exercise than maybe eating better now that I'm back, you know, just getting back into the routine of things. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and of course you know the question about self-care kind of naturally applies more to the time that you're not with your kids, because when you're with them you feel good. Yeah, without my son, because it's sort of like how you were saying that a big portion of your identity was about being divorced or going through a divorce and that'd be front and center. I think for me for a long time a big part of my identity was not having access to my son as much as I wanted, and so when I wasn't with him I was sad and at some point I learned to enjoy my time without him. I still prefer time with him, but learning to enjoy my time without him, and a big part of it was that not always thinking about the fact that I'm not with him when I'm not with him, right, not having that as my foremost identity.
Speaker 1:When you weren't with him and you were feeling bad or just not good. Does it stem from just like missing your son, or does it stem from also feelings of guilt to not being present yourself?
Speaker 2:it was really a combination of things, I think. Okay, sadness about not spending time with him, it was about feeling angry and upset about the unfairness of not getting to spend time with him. Like every moment that I spent away from him seemed to me like an offense against me and me feeling powerless around it. So I was feeling sad about that, I was feeling angry and frustrated about that. I was feeling really afraid because I didn't know if that's ever going to change or do I just need to get used to seeing him? That seemed to me like very little time. So it was a lot of really problematic emotions and I think the untangling happened also, working on all of those simultaneously. Basically, yeah right.
Speaker 2:Becoming, reassuring myself that actually I don't need to be afraid because our relationship is very strong and that it's not just about the time we spent together but the quality, and looking at other sort of indicators of the strength of our relationship, and then recognizing that, you know, whatever was happening maybe wasn't fair, but it didn't mean that I did something wrong or that I didn't try enough or anything like that, and so just kind of shrinking it back to the right proportion. So that takes away the guilt, like you were saying before. Right, Did I feel guilty? At the beginning, yes, and then later, no, because I realized I'm doing everything I can possibly do and the fact that it's not leading to the results that I want quickly doesn't mean I'm doing something wrong.
Speaker 2:It means I mean the system is designed poorly, the capital S system, but it doesn't mean that I'm doing something wrong. And then, much later after all of that was just really coming to enjoy my time alone or without him, rather, and recognizing that there are all kinds of activities that I do that I just wouldn't be able to do if he was with me, for example, all the time, or I'd need to find some other logistical solution. I guess people get babysitters. It's unimaginimaginable to get a babysitter, Cause I, you know, cause I enjoy the time with him so much and I don't have a lot of it. But if I had him all the time, I'm sure that that's something I would be considering. But yeah, coming to to enjoy the time away from him by not spending time away from him, yeah Cool. I totally resonate with all those yeah.
Speaker 1:I guess I got to work on the thing about like being okay with my time without them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one thing that was very helpful for me is finding things that were really fun to do, like that I really enjoy doing and that I could not do with him. Yeah, and then just scheduling them for the times that I could not do with him yeah.
Speaker 2:And then just scheduling them for the times that we're not together.
Speaker 2:So there was something there and you know, very similar to what you were saying before about the fake it till you make it right, the peeping through my fingers at the parts of the show that I could tolerate, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:So maybe at the beginning if I had two, three days without him, I'd be really upset. But there was this like one class that I really liked that I knew I was going for for two hours and that was a point of light, right, and it would break the the upset and then over time again having more of those things but also just being less upset away from him and learning to enjoy my life separately, upset away from him and learning to enjoy my life separately. But I think, I think scheduling good stuff is super important because then it's not a me deciding then and there, right, like I'm never going to decide to just intensely exercise in order to feel better. It's just never going to happen. But if, if I have a jujitsu class that I go to regularly at the same hour, I'm going to go, yeah, and I'll feel better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm gonna go, yeah, and I'll feel better, yeah. Yeah, I think it's kind of up and down for me, like there's something coming up next week with my ex-wife that I know I'm missing out on and it's kind of a big deal and I know I'm not going to be able to be there just because of the custody arrangement and things like that, and so that kind kind of sucks. You know what is the thing. So my older one, he got really into aviation and avionics and so he's really into planes and stuff and so like there's once you're this thing where the Navy comes and they do this air show with Blue Angels, all these things, and he's looking forward to going and it's on the week where they're with her, so she's going to take them, and I knew this for a while. So actually there was this big fiasco where she was kind of like beating around the bush and outright lying to me, like saying that she might not be able to take him because she would be too busy, quote, unquote.
Speaker 1:But actually it was because she wanted to take the boys with her, with that guy and his kid you know, so in the end it was like, well, if you're not going to take him, then we should tell him, because he would want to go. At the end I was like, ultimately I can kind of tell him and let him down gently, because it's something that I had told him about in the first place. And then she was like, ok, you know actually. She came clean and she said, no, actually we're going to take him with that guy and his kid, and I was like, ok, well, so it wasn't that you were too busy, it was just that you just didn't want to tell me that. You know so some weeks are harder than others, you know, without the boys, you know so some weeks are harder than others, you know without the boys.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, but even then that incident that happened a couple weeks ago and I was really upset at the time but I was just kind of able to nowadays I'm kind of able to think past that and be like you know, that's just one thing in the grand scheme of things.
Speaker 2:It's not like they're going to love me any less because I can't be with them, things like that. It's so great that you're able to give yourself that in in real time right, and as time passes you'll collect more and more examples of these things being true and realize that there's not a threat to the relationship there. But at the beginning it's scary, right, because you don't know, you haven't been through it like, you don't actually know if you know going to the aviation show without you is going to matter or not.
Speaker 2:I mean you sort of know.
Speaker 2:But like you say, academically right you know academically, but actually I mean, I want to go see the blue angels too yeah, but but as these things happen, hopefully you start collecting evidence that it doesn't change the relationship and maybe he comes and he's like super excited about it and he tells you about it. Maybe you watch, you know youtube movies about it, maybe you find some other air show to go together. Yeah well, no, maybe not, but like you said, I mean it's very unlikely that it'll actually hurt the relationship in any way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's not I'm still sad, but it's still disappointing that I was, because originally, like I was asked if I could kind of tag along if she was going to. I mean, it's not I'm still sad, but it's still disappointing that I wasn't Cause originally, like I was asked if I could kind of tag along if she was going to take the boys. I was kind of like, hey, can I take it along? And she's like no, I'm gonna bring that guy and so so I don't want to be there at all, you know. And so it's just like being sad about missing out on that experience. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know being able to see his face light up when he sees the airplanes and when he sees the jets and stuff, yeah, yeah, and I think again in this context, I think this is part of why it's so important to schedule really fun things for ourselves. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And not have it be only about the kids. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that we can be fully charged with the kids too. The image that scares me the most and I think I think I was that for for some time, long time, much longer than you, and probably a year, maybe two. It's kind of a Jack in the box, dad you know where, like I was just kind of hiding in my box and unhappy until my son showed up and then I sprang out and I was. I was genuinely very happy and energized and then he went away and I would just like cry and be upset and just like hide in my hole. Oh, I don't think that's great.
Speaker 2:You know, and it's not great for him. I don't think he saw any of it and part of what snapped me out of it was realizing that this could create some sort of a strain on him. If he somehow senses again because kids are telepathic, right and if he somehow senses that I'm sad that he's leaving and that can create some guilt for him or some tension. So like again, like I'm just lining stuff up literally for after he leaves, right, so that there's something for me to look forward to, so that I don't apply any kind of emotional pressure on him Right. And with time I came to be genuinely into those things and I'm I wouldn't say I'm looking forward to him leaving I don't think that would ever be true but I'm also, like, really happy for the next thing coming up.
Speaker 1:And it took some work to find those things and to get myself to the point where it's true, but I think it's so good for me and so good for him and so good for our relationship just like an element of just having to accept that this is the reality, right, like the reality is that I'm going to miss out on a few things, and first experience is that she's going to be the one to experience it with them, and vice versa, you know, yeah yeah, it's just going to be imperfect yeah, and that's just the consequence of this, this life choice that we made.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, yeah, maybe there's no answer right now, but I guess what what I'm asking when I ask about how are you caring for yourself? I'm asking specifically about the times when they're not with you, and how can you make it so that you have things to look forward to during the times that they're not with you so next week I'm actually going to visit my parents uh, again.
Speaker 1:So I'll see my dad again. I mean, I just stopped him off this past tuesday and I was oh, I'll see you next.
Speaker 2:This next week Are you going to do a slideshow about the trip to the rest of the family? Yeah, probably.
Speaker 1:But it's also my sister's birthday. It was also just like these cheap plane tickets, like Southwest was having a sale for like $29 flights. Oh, I love when they do that.
Speaker 2:So I was like okay.
Speaker 1:I guess I'm going to put those lights. Yeah, perfect timing. Yeah, the timing just happened to work out that way. So next week I'll see my family. I'm sure there'll be plenty of distractions Just chatting with my mom and stuff like that yeah. So yeah, I did all the talking with my dad, like last week when we were in Denmark, that's right.
Speaker 2:All of the talking Right Right. Nothing more for the coming month or two. So yeah.
Speaker 1:So next week I got something lined up with, you know, for the week without the kids, and then I did set expectations with them, like so hey, I'm going to go on this trip, so don't be too disappointed if I'm going without you. They're like okay, it's okay, fine, just bring us back something. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So there's that, and, um, I mean, we'll figure it out as we go along. Um, you know, uh, before the Denmark trip, I tried to like pick up playing video games again, and you know, um, when the kids weren't here, but I don't really enjoy video games that much anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, growing up much anymore.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, growing up is a bummer uh huh, so I don't know reading maybe I've been finishing up this like sci-fi series, so oh, there we go. This is the um. Have you seen the amazon show the expanse? It's like on the sci-fi channel. Yeah, so this is the this series of nine books.
Speaker 2:So you're reading the expansion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the expansion, yeah, so this is like the last one. So the show only covers the first six books and then it got canceled or whatever. So I just read book seven, eight and nine.
Speaker 2:Well, that does sound like fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but a class would be cool. I don't know. Yeah, I'm thinking of like something like a class. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan. I think class also gives you some community right and that's that's so nice. Yeah Of people, that kind of smile when they see you. You know that you smile when you see them. Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder well, maybe I don't know if you have thoughts now or something you could think of it later, but what kind of class might be interesting for you?
Speaker 1:something you could think about later. But what kind of class might be interesting for you? Yeah, I'll have to think about that. I'm not really sure yet. You know, wouldn't a class meet weekly, and then the weeks that I have the kids I'd still have to go to the class. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I guess that'll take some creativity. But even if the example I'm familiar with is martial arts, right, I mean, generally speaking, I have classes many times a week and they're drop-in right and it doesn't really matter. I mean, you're not going to become a state champion by not training every week, four times a week, but maybe that's not your goal right now.
Speaker 2:Right you know, so you could be coming just in the weeks they're not there. Or however you want to set it up, like, as long as it's a drop in class, then it can be OK. Or if you want to do an improv practice group that meets weekly, you know, maybe you go on the on the off week. Yeah right, or a hiking group or a mountain biking group? Yeah, yeah, so we have a painting like that studio or whatever.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, something to think about and look into.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I definitely have a lot of hobbies and stuff and yeah, so much free time now that you're not playing video games.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, right I know Kind of a bummer that I'm not into them anymore. It's okay, More productive things to do with my time. I think that's what it is, I think. When I'm playing the game I'm just like I just feel so unproductive.
Speaker 2:You can feel yeah, time is not being used well right now. You're right. What am I learning exactly? A, B, A, B. I knew that, yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, I got to get going to pick up the kids soon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Thank you for the talk with you, as usual, and again I think you're doing really great work just with yourself through this process. I mean you're sounding really well.
Speaker 1:Trying to. Yeah, all right, thanks, my pleasure. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I would be here without you, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh, really my pleasure. Thanks for letting me in. Yeah, okay, have fun on the weekend. All right. Thanks, you too. Bye-.
